a philosophical question to ponder

[Elaine_Figgis]

For lack of a better place to post this question, I place it here.

I've been thinking about the original title of the Larsson book 'Men Who Hate Women'. There are many to choose from in the entire trilogy, aren't there?

So here is my question.

Can we, should we, include Mikel Blomkvist in this collection? Did Larsson intend Mikel to be lumped in with all the other women haters he wrote into his books?

I find humans to be extremely complex creatures, existing on different parts of an emotional spectrum, from despicable to just sort of indifferent. It was DCs portrayal that sort of solidified my opinion, which I'll hold off on expressing for the moment.

Discuss...

[cheryl1700]

I cant see MB as a women hater so i would say no, he likes women, he may sleep around, but I cant see that been a hater of women. He likes them too much. There's a difference between molesting/torturing, and just sleeping around, plus some women are just as bad. I havent read the books so can go off the film. The social worker was in a position of trust, and god knows how long he has got away with that sort of behaviour towards his wards of care and martin was well deranged.

[tbossmc2000]

For lack of a better place to post this question, I place it here.

I've been thinking about the original title of the Larsson book 'Men Who Hate Women'. There are many to choose from in the entire trilogy, aren't there?

So here is my question.

Can we, should we, include Mikel Blomkvist in this collection? Did Larsson intend Mikel to be lumped in with all the other women haters he wrote into his books?

I find humans to be extremely complex creatures, existing on different parts of an emotional spectrum, from despicable to just sort of indifferent. It was DCs portrayal that sort of solidified my opinion, which I'll hold off on expressing for the moment.

Discuss...

I am going to make my explination simple. Blomkvist was/is Larsson's alter ego. Many writers have an alter ego as the character in their books.
On another plain I think Larrson had a fasination for violent men, woman abusers etc.
So as you express Elaine human's are very complex. Fasination and thoughts they were always told not to go to. Deep down in the curiosity or areas they feel untouchable are the unskoken places one's thoughts go to and exlpore.

[Dunda]

That's a tough one....

I think DC's Blomkvist differs a bit from the book's Blomkvist.

But in general:

I don't think I would include him in the list of Men who hates Women.

In the book he's more promiscuous, but he's not a womanizer IMO.
He's not the initiator in sexual encounters, e.g. Lisbeth just "takes him". With Berger he has a long friendship which just happens to include sex.
Cecilia jumps upon him too.

IMO he's thoughtful towards women in general, he tries to avoid situations that might be uncomfortable to women.

I just got this feeling when watching the scene when Lisbeth has spend the first night on the island and she's on his computer when he wakes up. When she told him about the pic that shows the female photographer taking pics from the parade, he comes to the computer and somehow invades the terrain around her (I don't know how to express it in Eenglish, I don't even can it explain in German) It's kind of indrudeing her privacy. There's just a tiny little switch in her face and a little flinching in her bodylanguage and he IMMEDEATELY recognizes that and retreats, saying "Sorry".

That's the scene, just a few second before she starts rolling her eyes about his clumsiness when closing all the tasks on his desktop



Have to think about this topic again......

[Jana66]

@Dunda,
the word you mean is "Comfort zone". Very difficult to describe, it can be the length of an arm, but also much wider.

[Dunda]

@Dunda,
the word you mean is "Comfort zone". Very difficult to describe, it can be the length of an arm, but also much wider.

That's the perfect to describe what I mean.

[Elaine_Figgis]

@Dunda,
the word you mean is "Comfort zone". Very difficult to describe, it can be the length of an arm, but also much wider.

Yes, 'comfort zone' he invaded her 'personal space'.

But I go back to Cheryl's comment, which gives me away 100%, Mikel did hurt Lisbeth, though not physically. Is that better or just different?

Armansky warns Mikel in DCs movie, 'don't hurt her' and he does anyway out of ignorance or indifference, who's to say.

[caramel]

@Dunda,
the word you mean is "Comfort zone". Very difficult to describe, it can be the length of an arm, but also much wider.

I would describe that as "personal space".
Yeah even in the movie she shows she is a bit startled by his invading her personal space but I forget how DC reacted. He was just focused on what he wanted to show her and she relaxes.

I wouldn't say MB as portrayed by DC is a woman hater... he respects them and obviously enjoys them when they throw themselves at him.
I think I will go with the way Dunda explained her take on it.

He sometimes ends up hurting women like Lisbeth emotionally due to the choices he makes but it isn't intentional. That is just being human.
Women are guilty of that too sometimes.

[Jana66]

@Dunda,
the word you mean is "Comfort zone". Very difficult to describe, it can be the length of an arm, but also much wider.

I would describe that as "personal space".

Yes. That definition even has a norm about it...0,45 m to 1,2 m.

[Dunda]

Armansky warns Mikel in DCs movie, 'don't hurt her' and he does anyway out of ignorance or indifference, who's to say.

Did he? Or does she just felt hurt? Do they ever show that there might be love involved?

He knows nothing about her past, the abuse (from father, guardian etc.)
How should he he know that her opening to him (when she talks about setting her father on fire) is a HUGE sign of trust and this trust is caused by the deep feeling she has for him?

This relationship is very interesting, that's why this movie is good even when you know who's the bad guy and how the murder mystery and mystery about Harriet's disappearance is solved.

[Elaine_Figgis]

Armansky warns Mikel in DCs movie, 'don't hurt her' and he does anyway out of ignorance or indifference, who's to say.

Did he? Or does she just felt hurt? Do they ever show that there might be love involved?

He knows nothing about her past, the abuse (from father, guardian etc.)
How should he he know that her opening to him (when she talks about setting her father on fire) is a HUGE sign of trust and this trust is caused by the deep feeling she has for him?

This relationship is very interesting, that's why this movie is good even when you know who's the bad guy and how the murder mystery and mystery about Harriet's disappearance is solved.

In the movie Armansky tells Mikel not to hurt her, when he goes to his office, to ask who did the research on him, threatening him with a lawsuit. I can't remember if the scene is that explicit in the book. But I do remember Armansky's deep affection (love) for Lisbeth being expressed.

True, there is no way for Mikel to know that Lisbeth's confession is such a tipping point for her. But that's my reason for the question. Why does he not recognize it for what it is? Do we just excuse his behavior as just being a guy?

[cheryl1700]

Armansky warns Mikel in DCs movie, 'don't hurt her' and he does anyway out of ignorance or indifference, who's to say.

Did he? Or does she just felt hurt? Do they ever show that there might be love involved?

He knows nothing about her past, the abuse (from father, guardian etc.)
How should he he know that her opening to him (when she talks about setting her father on fire) is a HUGE sign of trust and this trust is caused by the deep feeling she has for him?

This relationship is very interesting, that's why this movie is good even when you know who's the bad guy and how the murder mystery and mystery about Harriet's disappearance is solved.

In the movie Armansky tells Mikel not to hurt her, when he goes to his office, to ask who did the research on him, threatening him with a lawsuit. I can't remember if the scene is that explicit in the book. But I do remember Armansky's deep affection (love) for Lisbeth being expressed.

True, there is no way for Mikel to know that Lisbeth's confession is such a tipping point for her. But that's my reason for the question. Why does he not recognize it for what it is? Do we just excuse his behavior as just being a guy?

I would just excuse his behaviour as a human being not just a guy, women use/abuse men too just easily. I would excuse it.

[Firstsupergirl]

That's a tough one....

I think DC's Blomkvist differs a bit from the book's Blomkvist.

But in general:

I don't think I would include him in the list of Men who hates Women.

In the book he's more promiscuous, but he's not a womanizer IMO.
He's not the initiator in sexual encounters, e.g. Lisbeth just "takes him". With Berger he has a long friendship which just happens to include sex.
Cecilia jumps upon him too.

IMO he's thoughtful towards women in general, he tries to avoid situations that might be uncomfortable to women.

I just got this feeling when watching the scene when Lisbeth has spend the first night on the island and she's on his computer when he wakes up. When she told him about the pic that shows the female photographer taking pics from the parade, he comes to the computer and somehow invades the terrain around her (I don't know how to express it in Eenglish, I don't even can it explain in German) It's kind of indrudeing her privacy. There's just a tiny little switch in her face and a little flinching in her bodylanguage and he IMMEDEATELY recognizes that and retreats, saying "Sorry".

That's the scene, just a few second before she starts rolling her eyes about his clumsiness when closing all the tasks on his desktop



Have to think about this topic again......

Interesting discussion!

I agree with you Dunda and I think the scene when he first comes to Lisbeths flat also goes with your statement. She threatens him with the taser and he seems to be really shocked that she thinks he might be a threat for her.

Imo he is also far from hurting her deliberately ...it just doesn't come to his mind at all that their relationship could be more than sex because they are so different. And as you've pointed out in your last post - he doesn't know very much about her and her past and he doesn't want to stress her to tell him because 'it's none of his business'.

To see Lisbeths disappointment in the end is heartbreaking but I tend to the opinion that she has seen more in their relationship than actually was there.

[honeyjes]

I don’t think Blomkvist hates women, Lisbeth knows his lifestyle and background as she is already privy to the type of person he is and his relationships with women. Her hurt feelings weren’t deliberate on his part, he didn’t pursue her or made any overtures to suggest a relationship other than friendship, and apart from jumping his bones what should he have seen to make him think that she wanted more than sex from him.

For her to fall for him and be hurt only points to the fact that you can’t really choose who you fall for when you open your heart to another person, love isn’t rational and there is always a possibility that the other person may not reciprocate.

[Dunda]

True, there is no way for Mikel to know that Lisbeth's confession is such a tipping point for her. But that's my reason for the question. Why does he not recognize it for what it is? Do we just excuse his behavior as just being a guy?

I don't want to excuse his behaviour I just think he doesn't realize.
I think the thought that she might be in love NEVER crossed his mind.

When she refuse to speak to him or meet him in the second book he's really puzzled. He doesn't get the picture at all.

I really think he doesn't know what love is. He has a deep friendship with Erika, I don't think he was in love with his wife and in the third book when he meets Monica Superwoman and Berger says him that Monica is in love with him, he says ""I think I'm in love with her too."

I remember a talk between Mikael and Monica in the third book when Monica visits him in his little cottage.
She asked whether Erika or Lisbeth have ever been there and whether he has been in love with one of them. He says something along the line "When love means, liking somebody very much than I'm in love with more than one person"

Monika doesn't like this answer and he says that he's not going to apologize for the way he led his life.